Debate with an Agnostic

None of this is edited, it is a real life ‘debate’, spelling mistakes, cuss words and all. Please let me know what you think.

A statement made by a friend of mine on Facebook sparked the conversation:

Guy: Lord you are amazing , thank you so much for everything

Nick: Im sure everyone wants ur faith shoved down there throat. ur ignorance is bad enough dont need to spread the cancer thats killd millions. G

Guy: you can say what you want man.

Allan: Guy - Your updates are always encouraging and its awesome to see how much you love GOD!! Dont stop!

Nic: Thanks for your encouraging updates Guy!It is Christ that people will always call out to in their darkest time of need, whenever that may be! Your messages just remind people of this, keep on proclaiming His goodness!

Jonathan: The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good. Ps 14:1 Our sins are a cancer, not the thruth Guy is proclaiming. And he's not shoving his faith down anyones throat, you can accept life or reject it, your choice Nick, no one's trying to force you.

Nick: Christianity isnt life, its life claiming look at history. also im no fool for being agnostic. i have intellectually considered all religiobs and decieded they are all a joke. i contend that we are both athiests, i merely believe in one less god than you,when u consider why u discount all other gods u will realise why i discount yours.god is an imaginary friend for ignorant adults and youth alike. u pray to chance essentially for thats the only decider.prayer dusnt up thw statistical odds of anything in any case study. in fact a hugw study was done by a church in the treatment of patients. those who knew they were being prayed for showed decline in statistical health improvement whre as tewt subjects and the non informed showed normal statistics. this trial was run by one of the largest xtian fronts who failed to burry the failurw due to huge press interest from their p.r efforts. if u focused ur countless prayer and church hours into actualy benifiting humanity id take my hat off.

Allan: Not going to bother replying to Nick's post.. Everyone- dont even argue with him- A waste of time!

Nick: yes run away from your first challenger. a hundred years ago ud have had my head. if it means so much to you i thought ud argue it... oh wait religious ppl by definition cannot have a rational discussion. i see your point

Nick: hail satan

Jonathan: Nick, I am glad that you raise these issues and don't just ignore it like so many other people do. Especialy that you are willing to take us on. For that I respect you, however, I dissagree.
You bring up a number of points that basicaly challenge/attack the foundations of our faith and so it would be really difficult for me to reply to everything on guy's wall. I will mention a few things, but suggest we take this conversation somewhere else?
1. I never said Christianity is life. No religion is life. The Bible says that true religion is "to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world". But that in itself is not life, we get life through having a relationship with Jesus.
2. I am willing to have a rational discussion with you, lets both try not to stereotype. I will give you the answeres for why we believe what, and expect that you would be open to me challenging you aswell.
3. Not everyone who says they're a Christian are one, actualy most aren't.
4. Hail Satan?...lol, at least you have a sense of humor :)

Nick: dude we can argue that theres no proof of a god thats why we have faith then ill say faith is empty for if i believe in a green furry god it doesnt make it real then what makes ur real. u will say so many ppl have experienced him and challenge me to illustrate how this all came to be. then i will tell u that the human mind can create its own reality and schizophrenics also hear voices . i will then say that there is no explanation for all of this but lack of proof of creation does not proove theology only that there is no answer. i just wish everyone in the world could stop killing in the name of there gods, stop shoutign it aloud on facebook news adverts everything. the world dusnt need primordial beliefs. i want anyone who thinks they are a good person cos they are religious to shut the hell up till they do things that benifit ppl and im nto talking about prayer cos that does eff all. get on ur feet n go help ppl. and yes i do have a sense of humour. ive done my homework ive studied the ins and outs of the bible ive read the apocrypia and mant texts concernign the origns of religions and there inconsistencies.

Nic: Hey Nick, you're right. we can argue around in circles here. I have seen God answer prayer, my own life is testimony to this. I commit to pray for you. My prayer is that God will reveal Himself to you. You have nothing to loose surely? I have every confidence God answers prayer, lets see what happens. Thanks 4 your comments man...

Nick: see again u probably well pissed at me but u do this high horse attitude. how much of it is real and how much of it is u trying hard to be of higher moral stand point? its a question not a critisism. please actually consider it for a moment dude. tbh i dont want prayer my lifes pretty good at the moment. i do the sex before marriage thing, the drinking and swearing. but i study medicine to help ppl. and no im not as much of a dick as i appear to be here. lol. tbh the one night i sorta did the whole give my life to jesus thing at youth i was plagued by weird things in the dark. ive always had this connection to feeling presences, might i add not the friendly type. my father in the detached house nxt door felt weird things too. so my only experience that night was of forces of some type of evil strogner than id ever felt them... seems a bit off lol. pray away though mate. im content in myself enough not to need a faith to commit my life to really...but either way x

Jonathan: In reply to your previous post, Nick. God has given plenty of proof in creation, and especially in man who is created in His image. It actually takes more ‘faith’ to believe in nothing. We can argue in circles and there is an element of having to accept what cannot be proven scientifically, but I’m positive that God did not make our brains for nothing and that we are able to come to a solid conclusion. I also wish everyone in the world could stop killing in the name of their gods, God is judge an no one else, our command is to love the people around us, not kill them. But i don’t see where you get this idea that Christians are going around killing everyone? Sure you get deluded people who call themselves Christians and do really messed up stuff, and sure, i could add many more things to the list of faults that Christian people have, this goes to show that we are still human. We all have faults. If you know the Bible as well as you claim then I don’t need to remind you that the people Jesus disliked the most were the “perfect”, “got it all together” “I’m better than you” hypocrites. Dude, I seriously suggest you take your eyes off of Christians, totally, we are not perfect. take a look at Jesus, study Him, see what he really said, how he lived. He’s your kind of guy, down to earth, real, strait forward and hates a fake. I think you would get along really well.

Jonathan: In reply to your later response: I can’t speak for Nic, but we need to be real and at the same time strive to be better and not be satisfied with the state we are currently in. The night you sort of did the whole give your life to Jesus thing, that’s fascinating. I’ve had many similar experiences. Once again, if you know the Bible as well as you claim you’d know what Jesus said in Matthew 13 about the farmer who sows seed: some of it the birds steal, some gets choked by thorns, some got scorched by the sun...read it if you interested. The point is, that no one said lifes going to be all good once you’re a Christian, there is evil, just as you felt which absolutely Hates God and in revelation says the ‘beast’ hates God so much he decided to wage war on all of God’s people. So of course he’s gonna be ticked off if you decide to give your life to Jesus. He will do what he can to make you change your mind and steal/destroy the seed planted in your life. It’s happened to me too, I chose to fight back.

Nick: replys to 1st post --> in literature outside of the bible there is no mention of christ. the only mention of his name in roman texts is about soldiers who fought a battle under the name of christ some time after his death.. christianity is itself largely pagan, most traditions are pagan and most dates such as easter ( after oestre the female goddess of fertility as seen in the word estrogen) christmas is celebrated at the time of Hanukkah and change of seasons where the SUN dies on the cross... at this time in the northern hemisphere the sun (of god?) descends over the northern cross where for three days it seems dead as it reaches its lowest point then it ascends...to the heavens. alot of this is story telling guys. its not literal history. churches were created in the olden days to control a nation under fear of an almighty being. and a means to collect taxes.
in response to the second post. i dotn see much point in fighting for an ideology with no proof of it. i see it as we have one life... no1 can proove me wrong so i figure ill make the most of it here and now loving and living rather than go on the pretence that i will see these ppl in sum palace in the sky again.
ill leave u with this old quote "if god is willing to prevent evil but not able then he is not omnipotent. if he is able but not willing then he must be malevolent. if he is not able nor willing then why call him a god." there is no argument to that

Jonathan: sup Nick, ok well first off. In literature outside the Bible there is no mention of Christ? Im assuming you're refering to historical evidence otherwise i'd point you to any bookstore. Thats not true...just google it, you'll come up resources. Even though there is not a lot of writen records of Jesus when he was on earth, the Bible is an Excelent historical book, it is strange to me that very few people question the historical reliabilty of the Iliad for instance, which has FAR less reliable, but the Bible is bombarded with serious scrutiny..yet has stood for thousands of years and is still the no 1 selling book.
About Christianity being largeley pagan. Yes, the Christian Religion has many so called 'pagan' holidays and festivals etc.1. These aren't found in the Bible, whover chooses to follow them should not call it 'Christian', 2. Christimass for example is a pagan thing, but many Christians like to use it as a day to remember Jesus' birth..so what. 3.About Churches being created to control a nation under fear and get money, and i might add to gain power and influence aswell. Yes it happened, it still happens, and God's gonna Judge those people very severely. You don't need to be a Christian to know that there are many good things, ideas etc that are used for bad. Look at Zimbabwe for instance, a strive for equlity leads to tonnes of white farmers being kicked off lands and the nation plumeting into poverty...i don't see anyone say "AH! Its because equality is bad!". If you read the book of acts (It's one of the more historical books) you'll see that the early Church was very different.
In response to the old quote: God is Able and Willing, BUT, he gives us Free will. Man was created to rule the earth, we have a huge responsibilty and will be held acountable for our action..or inaction.
I have given many answeres, its only fair that you consider some of my questions, you don't have to respond, just think about it: What's the point of your/our existence? Have you ever loved? Can you prove it? Say, hypotheticaly in your case, you die and find out there is a God and you're standing before him...how would you defend your disbelief in Him?

Nick: ocfourse i mean historical im not a retard. modern literature about it means nothing. and like no1 knows wat the iliad is or cares. it only sells in masses cos its shoved down the throat of children by there parents. no rational minded adult would believe that shit having never heard it before...emphasis on rational minded. so god is gonna judge all of his preists? surely if he then did there would be no church...u reached a paradox congrats.
okay god gives us free will? so lets assume god wants us to be happy. there is no happiness without free will. with free will comes immoral decisions which lead to imoral actions. immoral actions lead to suffering. ie god wants suffering do u not see this point?
point of our existence in my opinion is only to observe for a universe with nothing to observe it may aswell not exist. one might suggest we are only here so as to experience. but this question will never be answered and lack thereof does not confirm religion. yes i have loved i find that fucking typical, can i not have loved without sum dead carpenters warm cuddly love in my heart? yes i have loved, to prove i have loved one would have to define love. is love blind faith liek in ur example? or is it the desire for anothers life to be better than your own at any cost to your own? if its the later yes i have loved
if i died and there was a hypothetical god i would argue with him that he is malevolent and immature and egotistical for creating a world which sole purpose is for us to proove how much we love him and not the other guy (satan). i would then tell him to send me to hell watever the experience may be because i would not wana live in the palace of an entity that cared nothing for its creations other than to blindly watch over it with no influence wen it destorys itself. think thats fair?

Jonathan: You sound pissed off. Thought we were having a rational discussion. I'll reply shortly

Nick: it happens when a rational minded atheist and a devout religious person take on this topic i apologise i get a bit worked up. u see i lost my brother to a christian cult now hes this weird pseudo version of himself. acknowledge that his church took shit to a whole new level but its still on the foundations of religion. i wotn bring that itno this.

Dibakazi: Christianity is nt a religion bt a lyfstyl! Eachday wlk wth God,nd folown in Christs futsteps.each day striving2blyk hm.

Jonathan: Hi Dibakazi, i'd take it even farther and say it's a relationship. Sucks about your brother, Nick... I've had someone in my family like that too.

In reply to your previous post. About the Bible being sold in masses and only been accepted because it was 'shoved down our throats' is more of an opinion, not fact, besides I've known and met plenty of Adults who have accepted It. We're talking about millions and Billions of converts throughout history, not everyone who is a Christian had Christian parents. Yes, God is going to Judge all of his priests, He will judge everyone. I think you misinterpreted me saying judge as meaning 'send to hell', it's not what I mean, I mean that everyone is going to stand before God, everyone will be held accountable for their actions and for everyone there will be a price that needs to be paid. Jesus paid that price for us, its a free gift, but does take faith to accept it.

About free will: with free will comes immoral decisions (which we chose) which lead to immoral actions (that we chose). immoral actions (that we chose) lead to suffering...I’m sorry but i don't see your point. Free will allows me and you to have this conversation, if there were no free will we'd all be robots. Think of it like this, a Dad loves his little kid, always, but He's not going to force the kid to love Him back, that would defeat the whole point of love.

About Love, it was a rhetorical question, of course you have loved before, my point was that Love is not something you can scientifically prove or put into a formula either. Your definition of Love so by the way, is the same as the "Dead Carpenters" (who is actually Alive), He never preached a warm cuddly love, he preached "Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends". Then He went and practiced what he preached.

Your hypothetical response to God reflects what a lot of people think. It's truly sad you think those things, and it's all based on human wickedness that you've seen on earth. Like you mentioned before a few times, Christians need be doing things to make a difference, that’s what God expects from us, not that we sit on our lazy backsides and only pray that He does something about it.

Nick: ""besides I've known and met plenty of Adults who have accepted I" - i emphasised rational to avoid that comment...see i foresaw ud say that.

im so over this debate. love scientifically proveable by hormonal means. look up P.E.A. its also an evolutionary manifestation to keep two people together long enough to have offspring. thats why u get that high wen u fall in love. its so u wont chuck her till uve had a chance to reproduce.

im done with this. its as fruitful as me arguing that pixies exist."

Jonathan: rational...your opinion, not fact. Hormonal love is that cuddly feeling, we were talking about something else...then again I am no bioligist so i guess i have no place commenting on science like that.
Farewel Nick, no man can change your mind for you or convince you other than what you believe to be true.

Nick: look ultimately love is an emotional state, like joy, despair, grief. these are chemical states of mind. its not as romantic but its the facts. love is alot more prooveable than a god.

Jonathan: If God was provable the way scientific things are, then He wouldn't be the outa this world amazing person we claim that He is.

Nick: hed be alot more believable. look ultlimately u base ur life around a book with no other proof. i dont run around shouting "alo hadora" waving wands around..

Jonathan: lol dude...from your perspective we really must look...um, retarded. And to me you're just blind. I doub't that you will ever get what we're all about unless you truly experience God in some way or another (that is what it comes down to, if God acts in your life you can't deny Him). Maybe He has and you rejected it, if not, all you need to do is earnestly seek Him, with Humility, not the prideful attitude you've had throughout much of this conversation.

Nick: i will have humility if a god humours me and shows itself in some form. last night i had something absolutelyamazing happen. now if thats an act of god it means that someones free will was compromised. so... miracle or no miracle? someone very important came back into my life. could that be a sign? see if i went to believe that after u asking god to show himself it means that persons free will not to know me has changed :/ these are the issues i struggle with. x

Nick: i wudnt say retarded. i just think its really odd to believe in something non physical and with no hard evidence. and theres just too much been added to and taken from the bible. orignally it had no spaces thewordswererwrittenclosetogetherlikethsiwhichleadtothingsperhapsbeingmisread. see how hard it is to discern?

Jonathan: Hi nick, well in attept to answer your questions, which are sortof difficult to answer, I'd say it depends how far you take your definition of free will. For instance, we don't get to decide where we're born, or if we will die or not. Some things we just can't choose, but of course that doesn't mean there aren't life changing decisions that we can't make for ourselves..hope that sheds some light, but I'm not even gonna pretend I have an exact answer for your question. That someone coming back into your life, it could very well be a sign... i don't know if you prayed for it or not. If you asked God to show himself by doing that thing, then yes, i think forsure its a sign...but I'm not you or God so i really can't say.
About the Bible. I'm impressed by your knoweldge :) I wish more christians asked these questions. To translate a bible into a new language from the original greek and ancient hebrew into any language takes around 10 hard working years to do (even with current technology). A lot of very well developed scientific methods go into dicerning which texts are the most acurate and reliable. Then comes so many other things, like proffesors of varius fields checking it's accuracy, linguists surveying and anaylising the language being translated into etc etc. Admitedly there will be some mistakes, especialy in older translations. I don't know the whole process but from a scientific standpoint I can assure you that the Bible (whether you believe what it says or not) is very acurate and well translated.
btw, are you coming for the world cup?

Nick: no mate. i would advise anyone travelling to avoid the world cup tbh. i think summing bad is gonna happen. like bombing or some political murder or sum shit. theres enough talk among the boeremag and that. but they seldom act out. still summing bad will likely happen mate :/

Jonathan: funny you say that, i just read about eugene terblanche being killed. Maybe God has called you to be a prophet? Lol. It's a pitty though, think its gonna be fun with all the hype..

That is the end of the conversation. Interesting fact: this debate took place over the Easter week. Feel free to give any feedback.